Subj: Fw: meteorobs-digest V3 #436
Date: 8/23/00 7:19:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Kent . ..... this is a forward of today's meteorobs list. There is a very
interesting discussion about Super High Leonids and the use of Israeli
classified radar. Thought you would like to read this ... maybe it fits
somewhere.

Debra


----- Original Message -----
From: "meteorobs-digest"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: meteorobs-digest V3 #436


>
> meteorobs-digest Wednesday, August 23 2000 Volume 03 : Number
436
>
>
>
> (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
> Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
> Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
> Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
> Re: (meteorobs) RE: Perseid max from SW Florida
> (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
> Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
> Re: (meteorobs) RE: Perseid max from SW Florida
> Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
> Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids old News
> (meteorobs) Re: Super-high Leonids
> (meteorobs) Fireball over California?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:06:51 -0700
> From: "Ed Majden"
> Subject: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
>
> We have had reports of unusual meteor activity on the evening of
August
> 21, 2000. Has anyone noted this? Preliminary check of the Sandia tape at
> EMO Courtenay B.C. records a slow moving ~ -6.0 magnitude fireball near my
> SW horizon ending W. at 22:51:10 PDT. Radio reports indicate unusual
> activity. This was reported in Courtenay and in Victoria. No further
> information is available at this time. I'm still reviewing last nights
> Sandia tape.
>
> Ed Majden - Sandia Bolide Detection Network - Courtenay B.C. Station
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:12:32 +0200
> From: Jure
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
>
> I was out with Javor Kac and David Zagorc from 1930 to 2300UT on August
> 21/22. We noticed no unusual visual activity - several Per, several KCG,
> a couple of Aquarids and a bunch of sporadics. I will post the reports
> tomorrow, still have to get some data from Javor...
>
> Clear skies!!
>
> Jure A.
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:04:46 -0700
> From: "Ed Majden"
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
>
> Jure:
> Where were you observing from? Location, and Longitude/Latitude.
> Ed
>
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
>
>
> > I was out with Javor Kac and David Zagorc from 1930 to 2300UT on August
> > 21/22. We noticed no unusual visual activity - several Per, several KCG,
> > a couple of Aquarids and a bunch of sporadics. I will post the reports
> > tomorrow, still have to get some data from Javor...
> >
> > Clear skies!!
> >
> > Jure A.
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 05:37:18 +0200
> From: Jure
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Meteor Activity August 21
>
> 15.12 E/46.4N
>
> Clear skies!
>
> Jure A.
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:29:23 -0700 (PDT)
> From: theodora jones
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) RE: Perseid max from SW Florida
>
> Dear Norman and Meteorobs folks,
> Thanks for responding to my query regarding Fla
> Keys observing prospects. Not a pretty picture is it?
> It is distressing to hear the conditions there have
> deteriorated to that extent. I will always recall
> your awesome summer-shower Keys reports from the early
> and mid-seventies and I was encouraged by Lew's
> favorable report for the 1999 Leonids. I agree
> however, that a large-scale observing session down
> there is probably NOT justified, at least in the
> summer timeframe.
> Your description of S. Fla weather this year
> closely mirrored what we had here in N. Fla
> (Jacksonville/St. Augustine), perhaps even a tad-bit
> worse! We actually had several clear nights leading
> up to the 11/12 P max night but activity was next to
> nothing. Lost almost all the max night to overcast,
> then the next two nights after that were clear. It's
> enough to drive you to drink heavily!
> On the max night, I managed to get in only about
> twenty minutes of casual observing from cloudy/hazy
> 4.5/5.0 skies from my front yard in St. Aug from about
> 0920 - 0940 UT. Saw 12 Perseids and 1 sporadic during
> that timeframe, leading me to believe 60+ per hour
> might not have been too difficult to get from better
> skies. None of my Ps were brighter than 1st
> magnitude, however. George's report did remind me
> very much of the kind of P displays we were getting
> around 1980, however, and except for the bright
> meteors, agreed well with what I briefly saw from N.
> Fla this year.
> Anyway, thanks again for the report, Norman and I
> would be interested in hearing more about your
> thoughts on Florida weather patterns prior to next
> year's Perseids. Surely, there must be a workable
> strategy we can employ on this... Paul Jones
>
> - --- nmcleod@peganet.com wrote:
> > Luck ran out for Perseid max with mostly cloudy
> > skies. We did actually get
> > to see a couple of nice meteors before and after our
> > late-night dog walk,
> > however. Going out front about 415 AM EDT (815 UT),
> > there was a half-field
> > of view around Cassiopeia to the Great Square. Just
> > half a minute later
> > Joan and I both saw a beautiful white-blue -2m
> > Perseid with 10-second
> > train. There was a slight terminal flare which made
> > the train heaviest at
> > the end. The really lucky part was seeing the last
> > half of the path within
> > a break in thin stratocumulus just a degree wide !
> > The hole was mostly gone
> > within five minutes, and neither of us saw anything
> > else in that period.
> >
> > The report from George WG in West Virginia is
> > remarkable. He has excellent
> > meteor perception, upwards of three times my rates.
> > His past reports on
> > other showers have shown the same tendency. George
> > is this year's U.S.
> > Perseid champion. As we went walking around the
> > neighborhood with small
> > breaks in clouds, plus large areas with the
> > brightest stars detectable
> > through thin stratocum, over the next half-hour
> > plus, we didn't see a
> > stinkin' thing ! Anything bright should have been
> > visible ; a -7m meteor
> > would have the effect of slow-motion colored
> > lightning. George saw all
> > these while we were also outside :
> >
> > > 8:18 6.3 -3
> > > 8:21 6.3 -4
> > > 8:49 5.8 -7
> > > 8:54 5.7 -6
> > > 8:55 5.6 -3
> > > 9:01 5.6 -3
> > > 9:12 5.4 -3
> > > 9:15 5.3 -7
> >
> > We got back to our house with another clear break,
> > larger than the first
> > one. Covering a good 15 minutes up to about 515 AM
> > (915 UT), I saw one
> > trainless yellow Perseid overhead (Joan, watching
> > too low, missed it) ; then
> > we both saw one short 2m sporadic. That was it.
> > Made me think yet another
> > sorry Perseid maximum had just passed. Dawn was
> > still half an hour away.
> >
> > I don't know how to account for the difference
> > between West Virginia and
> > Florida on purely physical terms. The earth is
> > moving along in its orbit
> > one full diameter in just 7 minutes, thus is passing
> > through the Perseid
> > swarm very quickly. Strong showers seen in only one
> > location have always
> > been a mystery. It happened between me and Mark
> > Adams during the 1985
> > Orionids ; Felix Martinez happened to be with me.
> > Mark, watching from 100
> > miles NE of us, saw 36 Orionids in one hour, one odd
> > fluke ; but during the
> > same period Felix and I were falling asleep from the
> > sudden dropoff in
> > Orionid activity. While we're at it, the strong
> > 1922 Lyrid outburst seen in
> > Greece got into print as being such a narrow stream
> > that the U.K. missed it.
> > Recalculation by Mark showed the U.K. still had
> > evening twilight -- that's
> > the reason the Lyrids weren't seen there.
> >
> > I presume Paul Jones is now in Pensacola or
> > Jacksonville, assuming he is
> > still in the Navy. Perseid observing from the Keys
> > has become too chancy.
> > The climate has changed to very unfavorable
> > conditions. I quit going down
> > there after 1981 -- already 3 bad years in a row at
> > that point. In 1984 I
> > went down with Paul Roggemans from Belgium for a
> > couple of nights -- poor
> > conditions then as well. All of our former
> > observing sites in the Keys have
> > been wiped out by lights. Lew goes to the only dark
> > place left, Long Key
> > State Park. Pigeon Key is in the Seven-Mile Bridge,
> > two miles from the east
> > end, but the town of Marathon is also at the east
> > end, too close for good
> > darkness. It's probably still LM6.0 at Pigeon Key,
> > but why go there for
> > such poor skies? In earlier times I could count on
> > a couple of weeks clear
> > at a time in summer with cobalt blue skies. All of
> > that is gone. These
> > days it is mostly cloudy with haze that seldom goes
> > away. Even in December
> > it's risky to come here or the Keys for Geminid
> > observing. In the past 2
> > months there have been only 5 clear nights, and 2 of
> > those were near full moon.
> >
> > Norman
> >
> > Norman W. McLeod III
> > Staff Advisor
> > American Meteor Society
> >
> > Fort Myers, Florida
> > nmcleod@peganet.com
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE from the 'meteorobs' email list, use
> > the Web form at:
> >
> http://www.tiac.net/users/lewkaren/meteorobs/subscribe.html
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:55:42 +0000
> From: "Shelby Ennis, W8WN"
> Subject: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
>
> In Sky & Telescope for June 2000, p. 45, there is the brief note, "Noah
> Brosch (Wise Observatory), who hosted the [April] worshop, reports that
the
> Israeli radar antennas tracked thousands of meteors, many at unexpectedly
> high altitudes. 'There are two peaks,' explains Brosch, 'one near 120 km
> (normal for these meteors) and a second, almost as crowded as the other,
> near 250 km. We have no idea what produces the radar reflections this
high."
>
> For those of us who regularly use the burns for forward-scatter
> communications, this is quite a statement! It would also (possibly)
> explain some extremely-long-distant (and controversal) contacts over the
> years. But was it for real, or only a radar anomoly?
>
> We have contacted several people who were on the MAC expedition and at the
> April conference. Peter J. was good enough to relay my request for more
> info on to the person who made this report. But we still have *no*
> information from anyone, either those directly involved or those who who
> heard the initial report. There seems to be a place reserved for it on
the
> MAC Web page, but it's blank.
>
> Anybody know anything more about this????
> Thanks.
> Shelby, W8WN
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE from the 'meteorobs' email list, use the Web form at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:03:00 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Sirko Molau
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
>
> Hello Shelby,
>
> > In Sky & Telescope for June 2000, p. 45, there is the brief note, "Noah
> > Brosch (Wise Observatory), who hosted the [April] worshop, reports that
the
> > Israeli radar antennas tracked thousands of meteors, many at
unexpectedly
> > high altitudes. 'There are two peaks,' explains Brosch, 'one near 120
km
> > ...
> > Anybody know anything more about this????
>
> I recently had some contacts with Dr. Brosch. He wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Some of the latter results
> > will appear in the special EM&P issue. For the time being, the radar
> > results have not yet been released for publication, although we have
> > good hopes this will happen sooner.
> > ...
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> Best regards,
> Sirko
>
> - --
> **************************************************************************
> * Dipl.-Inform. Sirko Molau * *
> * RWTH Aachen, Lehrstuhl fuer Informatik VI * __ *
> * Ahornstr. 55, D-52056 Aachen, Germany * " 2B v 2B " *
> * * *
> * phone: +49-241-8021615 * Shakespeare *
> * fax : +49-241-8888219 * *
> * email: molau@informatik.rwth-aachen.de * *
> **************************************************************************
> * www : http://www-i6.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Colleagues/molau *
> **************************************************************************
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:39:48 +0000
> From: "Shelby Ennis, W8WN"
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) RE: Perseid max from SW Florida
>
> At 15:18 2000/08/22 -0400, nmcleod@peganet.com wrote:
> >Strong showers seen in only one location have always
> >been a mystery.
>
> Some of us have seen very short radio enhancements like this for many
years
> - - one part of the US gets it, another part does not. (This is somewhat
> dependent on the location and elevation of the radiant and thus the angle
> of the trails, so it isn't necessarily the same, however). And I was
> exchanging notes a few years ago with a very experienced visual observer
> who told a *number* of incidents like this that he had been involved in,
> some over small geographical distances. And twice recently I've been
> outside during major showers, seeing nothing, when at exactly the same
time
> someone else at almost the same longitude was describing an excellent
display.
>
> But, then, we know that it's only our imagination, for, at least until the
> last few years anyway, the experts have said that this can't happen. Only
> statistics, at most....
>
> Must run - here come the little men in the white coats with their big
nets....
>
> Shelby, W8WN
>
> "The greatest of all the accomplishments of twentieth-century science has
> been the discovery of human ignorance." Lewis Thomas, physician and
essayist
> To UNSUBSCRIBE from the 'meteorobs' email list, use the Web form at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:26:57 +0000
> From: "Shelby Ennis, W8WN"
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
>
> At 17:03 2000/08/23 +0200, you wrote:
> >I recently had some contacts with Dr. Brosch. He wrote:
> >> ...
> >> Some of the latter results
> >> will appear in the special EM&P issue. For the time being, the radar
> >> results have not yet been released for publication, although we have
> >> good hopes this will happen sooner.
>
> Thanks!
> It was a surprising report, especially for more than an occasional burn at
> that altutude.
> But nobody seemed to know anything at all about it, in spite of several
> attempts to get more information. So we were beginning to think it really
> wasn't real.
>
> The "special EM&P issue" - what publication is this you're referring to?
A
> *lot* of us would like very much to read the entire report, when it's
> published.
>
> Thanks again!
> Shelby
>
> Shelby Ennis, W8WN - EM77bq - KY
> w8wn@arrl.net
> w8wn@amsat.org
> w8wn@backpacker.com
> Web - http://www.qsl.net/w8wn/
> <><
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE from the 'meteorobs' email list, use the Web form at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:25:33 +0200
> From: "delphinus"
> Subject: Re: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids old News
>
> - ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shelby Ennis, W8WN
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 3:55 PM
> Subject: (meteorobs) Super-high Leonids
>
>
> > In Sky & Telescope for June 2000, p. 45, there is the brief note, "Noah
> > Brosch (Wise Observatory), who hosted the [April] worshop, reports that
> the
> > Israeli radar antennas tracked thousands of meteors, many at
unexpectedly
> > high altitudes. 'There are two peaks,' explains Brosch, 'one near 120
km
> > (normal for these meteors) and a second, almost as crowded as the other,
> > near 250 km. We have no idea what produces the radar reflections this
> high."
> >
> > For those of us who regularly use the burns for forward-scatter
> > communications, this is quite a statement! It would also (possibly)
> > explain some extremely-long-distant (and controversal) contacts over the
> > years. But was it for real, or only a radar anomoly?
> >
> > We have contacted several people who were on the MAC expedition and at
the
> > April conference. Peter J. was good enough to relay my request for more
> > info on to the person who made this report. But we still have *no*
> > information from anyone, either those directly involved or those who who
> > heard the initial report. There seems to be a place reserved for it on
> the
> > MAC Web page, but it's blank.
> >
> > Anybody know anything more about this????
> > Thanks.
> > Shelby, W8WN
> >
> Hi list old news ???
> see the 1998 results of the DMS Expedition to China by Hans Betlem
> Regards Robert Haas
>
> New type of radiation of
> bright Leonid meteors above 130 km
> DMS Delphinus
>
> Meteoritics & Planetary Science 35 (2000)
> © Meteoritical Society, 2000. Printed in USA
>
> Pavel Spurný*, Hans Betlem, Klaas Jobse, Pavel Koten and Jaap Van't Leven
>
> *Correspondence author's address: Astronomical Institute, Ondrejov
> Observatory, 251 65 Ondrejov, Czech Republic; e-mail address:
> spurny@asu.cas.cz
>
>
>
> Abstract:
>
> In this paper we study the extremely high beginning parts of atmospheric
> trajectories of seven Leonid meteors recorded by sensitive TV systems
> equipped with image intensifiers up to apparent magnitude +6.5. For all
the
> seven cases we observed comet-like diffuse structures with sizes of the
> order of kilometers and quickly developing during the meteoroid
penetration
> through the atmosphere. For the brightest event with maximum absolute
> magnitude of -12.5, we observed an arc looking like a solar protuberance
and
> producing a jet detectable several kilometers sideways from the brightest
> parts of the meteor head, and moving with velocities over 100 km/s. These
> jets are common features for the seven studied meteors. Precise position
in
> trajectory, velocity and brightness at each point is available for all
seven
> meteors, because of double-station records on 85 km base-line. When these
> meteoroids reached 130 km height, this diffuse structure of the radiation
> quickly transformed to usual meteor appearance resembling moving droplet,
> and a meteor train started to develop. These meteor phenomena above 130 km
> were not recognized before our observations, and they cannot be explained
by
> standard ablation theory.
>
>
>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> - ----
>
> Back to
> DMS homepage This page was last modified on July 25, 2000 by
> Hans Betlem and Casper ter Kuile
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 21:25:36 +0200
> From: "Marco Langbroek"
> Subject: (meteorobs) Re: Super-high Leonids
>
> Hi Shelby,
>
> I've been at the Leonid MAC Workshop in Tel Aviv in April and heard Noah
> Brosch giving the talk. As Sirko remarked, a report will appear in the
> conference proceedings to be published in Earth Moon Planets. There's a
> small snake hidden: I want to add, that perhaps not all technical details
> you'd perhaps like to hear will be made public: when these were asked on
the
> conference, like power and detection characteristics of the used radar
etc.,
> the answer was that these are classified data. They used a radar of the
> Israeli military.... :-)
>
> A similar radar result however was not only presented by Noah Brosch, but
> also by Wayne Hocking from Mardoc Inc. in Canada at the same conference
> based on several of their Radar systems employed at several sites
worldwide.
> Perhaps an idea to contact him?
>
> - - Marco Langbroek
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE from the 'meteorobs' email list, use the Web form at:
> http://www.tiac.net/users/lewkaren/meteorobs/subscribe.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:59:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Robert Verish
> Subject: (meteorobs) Fireball over California?
>
> I'm sending this message for Ron Baalke. I'll make
> sure that all replies are FWD to him should his email
> address not be included in the "Cc:" of those
> messages.
>
> - ----------------- Attached Message -------------------
>
> From: Ron Baalke
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> ( Meteorite Mailing List )
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Subject: Fireball over California?
>
> I've received reports from some of my colleagues that
> they've observed a fireball from the Los Angeles area.
> They were all visual sightings with no sounds, so the
> fireball
> was apparently some distance off. The fireball was
> observed last Friday evening (August 18). Has anyone
> else witnessed this fireball?
>
> Ron Baalke
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of meteorobs-digest V3 #436
> *******************************
>